Account of the Division in Vietnam
Fred Allen’s Letter turning over VN oversight to Chau (Feb. 14, 1993)
Ten Examples of Changes the New Overseers Made
Uncle Chau’s Letter (April 6, 2007)
Bill of Sale on house to Hoan Minh & Confirmation
Uncle Hoa’s Heart Letter (Aug. 26, 2010)
Lyle Shultz' Letter Expelling Uncle Hoa (around Feb. 15, 2012)
Dale Shultz' Letter (April 28, 2012)
Two Elders Meeting Request for information
Nguyễn Xuân Hoàn’s Story
Nguyễn Xuân Hoàn’s Letters to Uncle Chau
Uncle Hoa's Letter to Hoan Thanh (April 9, 2010)
LINK to Dale Shultz letter April 12, 1999
LINK to Vietnam Photos in TTT Photo Gallery
Excerpt of Fred Allen’s February 14, 1993 Letter turning over VN oversight to Chau:
After discussing the Vietnamese question with Cliff Toane...We have greatly appreciate all that Hoa and Châu had done there these 18 years since the workers left there. Cliff has been very pleased with all he has found...
... So while Cliff can go in and out he will have the general oversight.
... Châu will be responsible if Cliff not able to be there.
copies of the above forwarded to:
LINK to TMB Thread
Ten Examples of Changes the New Overseers Made
In 2000, the Canadian Workers such as Morris Grovum, Darrel Turner, including Dale Shultz, began to do some things that were not guided by the Spirit of God, and the situation became worse and worse! They changed and changed as they went! The Workers used their authority to cut, to add, and to teach some things that are not right. They changed what they wanted and that was the cause of disagreements with those who weren't willing for their changes.
The Elders prepared a list of ten procedures the Overseers had changed and wanted them to follow along with their concerns and questions about them.
1. In the Golden Times, for so long a time we showed the respect in the Meetings by standing or kneeling when we pray or give testimony. But they changed to sitting. If sitting like the custom of Japanese's that would be OK, but some they sit by putting one knee on the other knee! This is impolite to our custom! It's worsely when they put one foot on the other knee! VERY impolite. We want to keep on standing!
2. We often read the Bible and pray together in every early morning with the whole family. My family has done this since 1961. No one teach us but the Lord helped us to do this in all the time we went in this Way. Never change! It's very useful for us! But they changed! They said family should read and pray separately!
3. In our country, depending on each place, we worship God on Sunday in the morning at different times, such as 5:30, 6:00, 7:00, 7:30 or 8:00 a.m. We are very satisfied in such cases. We're very happy with the times we have used for a long time! Go to get manna very early! Mary went to the tomb very early! We do like to imitate them! But they changed and all Meetings have to start at 9:00 a.m. now.
4. They shut the pocket and don't help needy with material things.
5. About the Meetings: Held Young People Meetings separate from the older Friends. No taking food to the Union Meeting for potluck as we used to do (Very lovely and encouraged Friends working together in love.)
6. The Bible says "Do not eat blood," but they permit to eat!
7. About the Weddings: Uncle Fred and Mr. Bau composed 5 wedding songs according to the music of the hymn. They spoke of the love of husband and wife. We're so happy to use them for the past 50 years. But in the last three years Darrel forbid us to use the hymns at weddings. For us, the hymns are only to be used in the Fellowship or Gospel Meetings, because they spoke of the love of God to the souls of men. Not for weddings!
8. About the Funerals: During Golden Times, along with the preaching, praying and singing, we had a time for Friends to give testimonies. There are often 5 to 10 people to speak about the life of the passing Friend. How he or she loved the Lord. How she or he had very good actions and so on. This not only encouraged that family but also encouraged us. But Darrel cut that out! He said if we praise the dead, the dead wouldn't get the reward from the Lord! So funny!
9. In addition, the new Overseers wanted to divide the country into fields, and were insistent that those lines not be crossed. In the past, the Workers went wherever they felt the Spirit led them, and where the need was, typical to how they felt was done in the New Testament. Under Darrel’s rule, the Friends could not go to other fields to visit without the permission of the responsible Worker of that field. We also couldn't invite or ask advice of any Worker not in our Field. In everything we have to ask permission of the Worker in the field first. Through them we even have to send the invitations to others (of course with their witness too). We lose our freedom. The law in our country give us freedom to invite anyone we want.
10. The Canadian Workers used their money to portray Workers as big businessmen with very expensive motorbike, living in an expensive apartment which attracts many young people to the Friends and make them want become Workers.
Source: Personal letter to Cherie Kropp from Mr. Nguyen HuuBau dated Nov. 14, 2013
Uncle Chau’s Letter About his USA Trip in 2007
April 6, 2007
Greetings Dear ones,
I am so thankful to God for giving this great privilege of being in Canada and the US for exactly one year. I attended 13 conventions in both places and I must say that my cup ran over. I just want to say I am so grateful to God for all the benefits that He has given me and I want to be more to Him when I return to my country. God has really used my time here and there to enrich me. I feel so indebted to God more than ever and I want to pay my vows to Him faithfully each day that I live...
I want to tell you a bit of my trip. I left California on the 26th of March for Houston, TX, and there I was met by Kimberly Alford at the airport and she took me to her home. There I met her husband and children, and later her parents. Kimberly left VietNam when she was 2 years old with her 3 sisters, the same time with Larry Smit and his brother...I had met her sister Missy in CA and now I met Kimberly...It was such a joy to see her having a love for the Truth and for the Way of God and His people. I was also happy to see her husband who is a very nice man, who has the same love for God and His people. Then in a get together we had a potluck dinner together at their home I was so happy to see her parents and we had a very good visit...After the dinner I shared something about the work of God in VN...
The next day Kimberly and her parents drove me to the Space Centerand we had a very good time together...I really enjoyed my time with them. I appreciate all that they did for me...
The next day we had dinner at the home of Mike Baker with our workers Ira Hobbs and his companion. I met a Vietnamese friend who had found the Truth recently there...I had a very nice time with them all.
The next day Elisa and her brother Pierre Mille drove quite a long distance to Houston to see me...I have known them and their parents Dominique and Mireille Mille in VN for the last 9 years. So it was so good to see them again. After having lunch at Kimberly's house they drove me to Conroe to see Ken Newman and his family. I was so happy to see them again and to see their parents who came there to meet me. We have met them all in VN before, so it was so good to be in their home and have fellowship with them...
On Saturday March 31st Ken and his son drove me to the airport and I left for Utah. I arrived at the Salt Lake Airport and was met by David Bement and he took me to his home. In 1968 David was in VN and he was stationed right in NhaTrang where Edwin Allen and I were having our mission, so it was so good to see him again after 39 years...David took me to many places to see our friends and workers. On Sunday we had a big reunion meeting with the 2 sister workers and our friends there, and in the afternoon we had a Gospel mtg and after that a potluck dinner at one friend's home...There were quite a number of friends including 2 brother workers Titus Lehman and Martin Wilson in the next field with the sister workers. They asked me to talk about the work in VN and we had a very good time together.
On Wednesday April 4th David drove me to the airport and waited for me until I completed my check in before he left me. It was very kind of him to do so...I arrived at Boise Airport in Idaho and was met by Jay Wicks and his companion Mike, Mrs Hong Le thi and Don and Lorna Williams who drove all the way from Montana to see me! I was so impressed to see them all there. Mrs. Hong is the one who invited me to come to Idaho to see her and her husband. They came to the US in 1975 and were introduced to the Christian and Missionary Alliance Church.
After that Mrs Hong was baptized in that church, but in 1977 or 78 her son got ill and was hospitalized. While they were there an old professing lady met Mrs Hong and as a result she was introduced to the Truth...and she made her choice to serve God a few years after that... Her husband is Chinese and he has started coming to the Gospel mtgs with her and has the workers to come to their home on Wednesday morning for a Bible read...
We had a Gospel mtg at the auditorium of a school here last night and quite a large number of friends came with a few strangers. I was able to tell them about what God had been able to do in our country since 1958 when the first 2 workers from Australia and New Zealand came to preach the Gospel in South of VietNam, and then in 1960 when Phyllis Munn and Bonnie Dahlin came to help in the work there. The Gospel has spread to many parts of our country now and has born much fruit now as we have a few more workers from Canada and the US and Korea to come to help us...
I was very happy to see David Waldo and his wife in the mtg. He has asked us to come to see him at their convention ground here. David Waldo was in VN in 1967 or so...I am very thankful to have this time free to visit these friends whom I hadn't seen for a long time or had never seen before. I will visit Portland, OR, next weekend, and after that I will go to Sacramento and San lose a see a few more friends before I return to the Orange County on the 17th of April to see my folk and get ready to attend the 1st Buttonwillow conv. and then return to VN as soon as the conv. ends on the 6th of May. I will close here with best wishes to all of you.
Yours in Christ,
(Vu Ngoc Chau)
Bill of Sale of house from Vũ Trung Hiền to
Hoàn and Minh Thanh
Translated to English
From: hien rua [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org]
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 9:44 PM
Cc: Ngoc Chau; Samuel Nguyen; thuynga; vuthithuyhien; vuthithuyhien; vutrunghoa; Nha Doan Van Bo; Vinh Sinh Nguyen
Subject: Re: Cám ,n anh...
Dear Hoàn Thanh,
My wife and I Vũ Trung Hiền would like to confirm with Hoàn & Minh Thanh and everybody that the house at 19 CX Trần Quang Diệu, F.14, Q.3, from now on, belongs completely to both of you.
My wife and I thank to brother Vũ Ngọc Châu, Both Hoàn & Thanh, and brother and sister Thành-Hằng Nga has helped to the transfer of ownership of this house smoothly, beautifully.
We wish both of you and the children to be always joyful, peaceful, healthy under the cozy roof of this house which had impressed many memories of two of us, our children Hiền Hòa and the workers.
Love to you,
Vũ Trung Hiền & Thúy Nga
From: hien rua [mailto:email@example.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 9:44 PM
Cc: Ngoc Chau; Samuel Nguyen; thuynga; vuthithuyhien; vuthithuyhien; vutrunghoa; Nha Doan Van Bo; Vinh Sinh Nguyen
Subject: Re: Cám ,n anh...
Hai em Hoàn Thanh,
Anh chị Vũ Trung Hiên xác nhận với hai em, và mọi người , rằng căn nhà 19 Cư Xá Trần Quang Diu, F.14, Q.3 này, kể từ hôm nay, hoàn toàn là của hai em.
Anh chị xin cám ơn Anh Vu Ngọc Châu, hai em Hoàn Thanh, và anh chị Thành-Hằng Nga đã giúp cho việc chuyển nhượng căn nhà này diễn ra rất êm đẹp.
Mến chúc hai em và các cháu luôn được vui vẻ, bình an, mạnh khỏe dưới mái ấm căn nhà đã từng ghi nhiều kỷ niệm của anh chị, hai cháu Hiên-Hòa và các tôi tớ Chúa.
Vũ Trung Hiền & Thúy Nga
LINK to TMB Thread
Posted on TMB on December 16, 2013
Uncle Hoa’s Heart Letter
August 26th, 2010
To every dear brother and sister,
This is Brother Hoa. I am writing to explain about my absence in the coming days
After a long time of thinking and comparing, I see clearly that the Lord wants me to be courageous and to ring the bell for a wake up call. In order for my ringing the bell to get results, I must not only be well behaved with a definite purpose, but also must sacrifice and endure loss.
My silence in the coming days does not mean that I am leaving you. On the contrary, I will be near you. I will steadfastly keep my eyes on the goal that I chose in the beginning. I want to continue to offer my life in order to encourage and strengthen your souls and help others who are in need. I’ll hold fast that goal to the end of my life.
I have cherished my friendship and fellowship with you during the many past years. I am writing you of my intentions beforehand, to prevent a loud meeting from taking place due to my behavior and actions. I have decided that such a meeting will not be needed. I do not want any of you to spend money or travel time on my account just to hear what they will say about me. (With this letter, you already know my decision.)
Dear Brothers and Sisters, be cheerful about my decision to put off the noose (cái tròng) from my neck. From today, I choose to freely use the rest of my life to serve God according to His good will in the manner God’s family did in the Golden Times (even if it proves difficult and means that I lack material goods).
May you all have joy, strength and choose wisdom every day.
LINK to TMB Thread:
Posted on TMB on November 25, 2013
About 18 months after Hoa began preaching independently, Lyle Shultz wrote this letter for the Workers to read to the Friends. Friends who requested a copy were denied.
Lyle Shultz Letter about Uncle Hoa
2012, around February 15 -
On February 15, 2012, Colin, Peter, Cuong and I had a visit with Uncle Hoa at our residence in Ho Chi Minh City. Over the last several months, Uncle Hoa has been moving quietly among our friends and at the same time avoiding any contact with teachers. During the special season, he avoided being at any center where classes were being held.
This has raised questions in the minds of several of our friends and they have been asking us about him. We felt that it was necessary for us to speak directly with Uncle Hoa so that we can give a suitable answer to those who enquire about his activities. During our visit together, we asked Uncle Hoa several times to tell us clearly what we should tell our friends regarding his relationship with us. He finally told us that he is not in agreement with the way that we are working here. We made no headway in our attempt to visit with him further on that subject and eventually he terminated our discussion abruptly and left.
After careful consideration of our talk together with Uncle Hoa, we wish to make the following points clear:
1. Uncle Hoa voluntarily left the work in mid 2010 and has made no attempt to be reinstated. Therefore, he is not considered a part of the teacher staff in this country now.
2. Uncle Hoa has put in many years of service prior to 2010 andit is fitting for usto keep that in mind and respect him for that. We understand that many have fond memories of his fellowship, help and support during those years and it will grieve them, as it grieves us, that he has distanced himself from the teacher staff now. Anything that can be done to encourage him to communicate with and cooperate with the teachers in the areas where he visits will be greatly appreciated.
3. The door is open for Uncle Hoa to contact us at any time. We are prepared to do all that we can to help him fill a useful place among us if he desires to do so.
4. Our friends are at liberty to receive Uncle Hoa into their homes for a visit if they feel comfortable with that. We are not going to try to monitor or control that. We know that many will not feel comfortable about him visiting their home as long as he is not in hearty fellowship with the teachers in this country.
We understand those feelings too, because the teacher staff is a precious, dedicated group of men and women who deserve our highest respect. The bond between teachers and students is the result of a divine work that has taken place in our hearts and we need to protect that bond from any influence that would bring division among us.
LINK to TMB Thread
Posted on TMB on January 17, 2014
Above letter in Vietnamese:
ACE thân mến,
Ngày 15/2/2012, anh Colin, Peter, Cường và tôi có một buổi nói chuyện với bác Hoa tại chỗ ở của chúng tôi ở Sài Gòn. Trong những tháng vừa qua, bác Hoa có đi lại một cách thầm lặng giữa vòng CACE, và cùng một lúc thì tránh liên lạc với bất cứ ai trong chúng tôi là TTC. Trong suốt thời gian có buổi nhóm đặc biệt, bác ấy đã tránh mặt ở những nơi sẽ có buổi nhóm. Việc này đã làm cho nhiều ACE thắc mắc, và họ đã hỏi chúng tôi về bác ấy. Chúng tôi cảm thấy thật cần thiết cho chúng tôi để nói chuyện trực tiếp với bác Hoa, để có thể có những câu trả lời phù hợp cho những ai hỏi thăm về những hoạt động của bác ấy. Trong suốt buổi nói chuyện, chúng tôi đã vài lần hỏi bác Hoa cho chúng tôi biết rõ ràng về mối liên hệ của bác ấy với chúng ta là như thế nào để chúng tôi có thể trả lời với ACE. Cuối cùng, bác ấy nói cho chúng tôi biết, bác ấy không đồng ý với cách chúng ta đang làm việc ở đây. Chúng tôi đã không thể nói với bác ấy nhiều hơn về đề tài đó, rốt cuộc bác ấy đã đột ngột chấm dứt cuộc nói chuyện và bỏ đi.
Sau khi xem xét lại cẩn thận cuộc nói chuyện với bác Hoa, chúng tôi muốn làm cho rõ những điểm sau đây:
Bác Hoa tự ý rời bỏ công việc vào giữa năm 2010 và không hề bày tỏ ý muốn quay trở lại. Vì vậy, bây giờ bác ấy không được xem là có phần trong công việc Chúa ở đất nước này.
Bác Hoa đã có nhiều năm trong công việc Chúa cho đến năm 2010 nên là điều đúng để mình nhớ và tôn trọng bác ấy về việc này. Chúng tôi hiểu là nhiều ACE có nhiều kỷ niệm thân ái về mối thông công, sự giúp đỡ và sự hổ trợ của bác ấy trong những năm qua. Điều làm đau lòng CACE đó cũng như chúng ta là bây giờ bác ấy đã tự làm cho mình cách xa với các TTC. Bất cứ điều gì có thể làm được để khuyến khích bác ấy liên lạc và hợp tác với các TTC ở những nơi bác ấy đến thăm thì rất được trân trọng.
Bác Hoa có thể liên lạc với chúng tôi vào bất cứ lúc nào, cánh cửa luôn mở cho bác ấy. Chúng tôi sẵn sàng để làm tất cả những gì mình có thể để giúp đỡ bác ấy có được một chỗ ích lợi nếu bác ấy muốn .
CACE thì tự do để tiếp bác Hoa vào nhà nói chuyện nếu họ cảm thấy thoải mái. Chúng ta không cố gắng để giám sát hay kiểm soát về việc này. Chúng ta biết rằng có nhiều ACE sẽ không cảm thấy thoải mái việc bác Hoa đến thăm nhà họ trong lúc bác ấy vẫn không có sự thông công mật thiết với các TTC ở đất nước này. Chúng tôi cũng hiểu được những cảm giác đó, bởi vì các TTC là một nhóm người nam, nữ rất quý và tận tụy, họ là những người xứng đáng với sự tôn trọng cao nhất của chúng ta. Sự gắn bó mật thiết giữa TTC và ACE là kết quả của công việc Chúa làm trong lòng mình, và chúng ta cần bảo vệ sự gắn bó này khỏi bất cứ sự ảnh hưởng nào đem đến sự chia rẽ trong chúng ta.
Dale Shultz’ Letter with comments inserted by Minh Thanh
NOTE: “Teachers” are Workers and “Students” are Friends
3355 D Street
Hayward, CA 94541-4565
April 28, 2012
Dear Brothers and Sisters,
I have been asked to outline the involvement of Tsutomu Miyata, Simeon Sarmiento and myself during our visit to your country in March of 2010. I had been invited by Jim Chafee to Hong Kong, China and Mongolia for a visit. Because we had Teachers in your country whom I knew well, I was anxious to also visit there while in the east. After arrangements were made for me to spend two weeks in your land, I began to hear about some problems there involving Chau. (#1) (Uncle Hoa had heard Darrel reporting to Uncle Dale a month before, and we were informed a month before the gathering. For me, this was the first lie in Uncle Dale's letter.)
The Teachers in your country were anxious (The Teachers in my country were going by his or her made up stories to the highest Overseer) that I would help in resolving these problems. I was only going to be there for two weeks and I was going with very little background information concerning the Teachers and Students in your country. I didn't want to attempt to sort through these problems alone, so I was in touch with Jim Girton, Ernest Robinson and Tsutomu Miyata regarding this trip and the issues that were a concern. It was arranged that Tsutomu and Simeon would be there with me during the first week of my time in your land.
We visited with the local men Teachers (including Hoa) concerning Chau. Tsutomu, Simeon and I then visited with Chau. We found Chau quite open to direction and help and we discussed the problem areas that had been presented to us. Later, Darrel, Morris and Hoa were added to the discussion group and a good spirit prevailed in our visiting together. Chau committed himself to correcting some things which he had practiced in the past. Because Chau was still in the midst of getting the family property transferred to new owners and disposing of the proceeds thereof, we suggested that he take a leave of absence from being active in the ministry until these business affairs were all finalized. (#2) (Second lie. Untrue explanation from one who didn't know that all the business affairs were finished three months before. Uncle Chau didn't do any more work until he was back in the work!)
We also anticipated that he could use this period of time to establish a better relationship with the staff in general. (Their main purpose) We were very impressed with Chau's attitude during our time with him (Uncle Chau’s attitude was always the same) and our expectation was that the relationship between himself and others on the teaching staff would improve and trust between them would be deepened over the few months that Chau would be completing these business affairs. (#3)(How could the relationship be deepened when the "Overseer" was trying to drive a wedge between the Friends and Workers?)
I would like to add here that Hoa was very helpful during these visits. I remember two occasions during our discussions when Hoa made suggestions which we gladly followed. He had the advantage of having been a close friend of Chau for many years. We all were concerned that the very best results could be realized for the Teachers and Students in your country and for Chau's future as well. (Of course Uncle Hoa has always wanted to be a help with God's work, until he saw what was happening was wrong and not under the Spirit of God's leading. Especially what Darrel said to his staff in the Workers Meeting. That’s the reason why he stopped cooperating with them.)
After returning to California, I became aware that our anticipated "improved relationship" between Chau and other teaching staff members was not happening. In fact, it seemed like the relationship was becoming more strained again. (#4) (With the report from Darrel, he was very good at making up stories.)
The time came when the business affairs concerning the family property were all completed (#5 ) (I want to shout again "A lie explanation") but it seemed that there was very little desire to reinstate Chau to an active role on the teaching staff. (This is what they really wanted! Right after the annoucment meeting, a elder sister, who was teaching Vietnamese to Darrel phoned my husband, "What a pity for brother Chau that he didn't know that it's hard and far for him to get back into the work." This lady was a very good person to spread Darrel’s made up stories. They had a close relationship, and her daughter is a young worker.)
It also seemed that little effort was being made to try to help him with whatever was perceived to be the remaining obstacles to that happening. Because the relationship between Chau and the teaching staff, as well as the relationship between Chau and a sizable section of the Students, had not been adequately dealt with; the possibility of Chau starting immediately in Vietnam was hardly an option. (#5) (This was when they started to drive Uncle Chau out of the country.)
I was then in touch with Jim Girton and Ernest Robinson, wondering if they would favor an attempt to have Chau come to California to labor with our staff for as long a time period as a visa would permit. It was thought that it would be very beneficial for Chau to gain experience working (#6) (He had experience learning from Jesus through many years) with a larger staff of Teachers and would give him opportunity to understand better how Teachers (#7), and being a good worker for God's work), young and old, work in harmony together; respecting each others fields of responsibility and collectively covering the needs of all of the Students. (#7) Uncle Chau had to respect young Workers even though they didn't respect him. We read an email from a young sister Worker sent to his brother said "Whenever you received emails from brother Chau…Delete it…Don't let his email bother your mind.")
If Chau functioned well in California, this would in turn build up the confidence of the local Teachers and Students, so that he could later return with the full support of all. Jim and Ernest sanctioned this plan. We obtained the services of a respected immigration attorney here in California and were surprised when two attempts under this attorney's guidance and direction resulted in two refusals from American Immigration.
Following this, the decision was made by the overseers closer to your land that Jim Girton, Keith Olsen and Jiwhan Yu would visit your country to try to sort out the problem that was there and hopefully come up with a plan that would work towards a solution. It was during their visit to your land that my brother, Lyle, was approached concerning coming to your country to help. Since that time, Lyle, Lloyd Morgan, Jim Girton, Ernest Robinson, Keith Olsen (until he passed away) and Jiwhan Yu have included me in much of the communication concerning events and issues in your country.
My thoughts and heart have very much been following the events there and hoping for "better days." (#8) The above description pretty much covers my more direct involvement, including that of Tsutomu Miyata and Simeon Sarmiento, with the issues which concern both yourselves and those of us who look on from a distance. (#8) (when we would all obey him, even in things that are wrong.)
As you know, Chau has again been reinstated to a teaching role and is helping Lloyd in Cambodia. We are thankful that he has this further opportunity. Much remains to be done in order that the divisions that have developed in your country can be resolved. (#9) (They must consolidate their throne first.)
Much also needs to take place in order for most of the Teaching Staff and many of the Students in your country to have confidence in Chau again. (#10) Saying that they will have confidence again in Uncle Chau if he puts his labor under their rule, instead of under the leading of Jesus in the Bible.) We are as anxious to see that happen as you are and we will continue to work patiently with the staff, Students and Chau to that end. However, this effort requires your full cooperation. We appeal to all of you to work closely and cooperatively with Lyle and Lloyd. This is the order that our great teacher honors and blesses and is the only hope of unity and joy being restored in fullest measure.
This letter has been compiled with the help and full agreement of Tsutomu Miyata, Simeon Sarmiento, Ernest Robinson and Jim Girton.
Your friend and brother,
LINK to TMB Thread
Posted on TMB on January 3, 2014
Hoan: End Note: I was surprised when Uncle Lyle warned me not to send this letter to Friends by email! Now I understand the reason why they were afraid to send by email: Wherefore whatsoever ye have said in the darkness shall be heard in the light; and what ye have spoken in the ear in the inner chambers shall be proclaimed upon the housetops. (Luke 12:3)
Two Elders Meetings - Request for information
(No date – Sometime when Darrel was Overseer; passed over to Lyle.)
To the Workers,
We, God’s children belonging to churches scattered in the country of Vietnam, unanimously have the same voice to God’s Workers about God’s Work in Vietnam.
First of all we want to show our gratitude to God’s Workers for spending their life to labour for God, especially those who have left their prosperous countries to come to Vietnam.
Recent years, we have seen and heard some things from brother Darrel (overseer) and other Workers. We would mention them below. We wish our Workers to answer us in order that we can understand clearly, we are very grateful.
Part I – The Things We Want To Ask
1. Studying the Bible every day.
Beforehand we were taught by brothers Châu and Hoa that the first thing we need to do when getting up every morning is to pray, meditate. After that, according to individual family, all the family members gather together at appropriate time (early morning is the best) and study the Bible.
But now…brother Darrel says “No studying together. Study individually.”
We want to ask…Is it true?
2. Taking notes in the Meetings.
Some Friends attending Conventions or Special Meetings jot down the thoughts shared by God’s Workers. Later on they correct the notes and copy them and give them to any Friends who ask.
But now…brother Darrel says: “No taking notes.”
We want to ask… Is this right?
3. Telling God’s word.
We live in the world and sometimes someone asks us about God. Previously in our humble place, we tell them about God and at last we introduce them to meet the Workers.
But now…brother Darrel says: “We live among the people. If someone asks about God, God’s children are only permitted to tell them the reason why we follow God. We have to wait for God’s Workers coming to tell them God’s word.”
We want to ask…Is this true?
4. The Breaking of Bread.
a) We have read in the Old Testament and New Testament that Jesus established the Breaking of Bread in the evening. Is there any relation with the fact that God created the world in 6 days in Genesis. When finishing God said, “…and there was evening and there was morning, one day…”
We wonder if the evening exists before the morning or not. Please explain it to us and explain us more why we have to have Meeting in the morning?
b) Previously every church discusses and chooses the best time to have gathering.
But now…brother Darrel says “The Fellowship Meeting is at 9 o’clock AM”
Now we want to change the time appropriately according to each church, is it alright?
5. The Weddings.
a) The Bible says “giving wife and taking husband”. It shows that the parents manage to organise the wedding, taking husband to their daughter. As parents, we have the right to invite any guests accordingly.
But now…brother Darrel says we “should only invite the two churches and the guests close to the bride and the bridegroom. No parents’ guests.”
We want to ask…Is this true to the rule ?
b) About the MC (Master of Ceremony) of the wedding,
But now…brother Darrel says that “we should ask a young friend to be an MC, not old one.”
We want to ask about “the young friend”…From what age to what age is young ?”
We don’t understand the purpose of this idea. Why???
6. The Funerals.
When one of our Friends passes away, we want to take pictures at the funeral to send them to relatives (not professing) living in other countries or remote places who cannot attend the funeral.
But now…brother Darrel says “No taking pictures in the funeral.” How do we manage?
7. Borrowing money.
Brother Darrel recommends: “when someone loans an amount of money to other, the loaner considers it as giving it. And someone wants to borrow an amount of money, he must go to the bank to borrow.” Brother Darrel wanted to advise God’s people not to loan money to each other.
But now…in our country, someone wants to borrow money at the bank, they have to mortgage their house or their field. And some of them don’t own anything. How can we manage?
8. Helping each other in material things.
In the Bible we have read that some Churches raised money to help other churches in adversity. In recent years we have never heard the Workers encourage God’s people to help each other in material things. On the contrary, some Workers didn’t permit us to help each other in material things. Among God’s people, there are still some very difficult families. The Workers don’t want them to borrow money, to help in material things, they don’t encourage either.
We want the Workers to let us know more how to behave when we want to help each other in physical, material things?
9. Praying to ask God to drive away demons.
There was a family. A member in the family one day suddenly her health declined and always talked nonsense. Sometimes she affected the Meeting. Although she was treated by doctors, her illness was not healed. With these signs, we thought she was possessed by a demon. One time we asked brother Châu and the Friends gathered at that place to pray: “May God have mercy on this woman…” After some occasions of praying, this one got better, was conscious again and became normal. We thought God accepted our prayers. After that she decided to follow Jesus and she has been faithful so far. Since then her parents and relatives saw the power of God and wanted to follow Jesus, too.
We want to ask the Workers about this prayer…“May God have mercy on this woman and drive the demons away from her.” Is there any thing wrong with it?
But now…brother Darrel says: “It’s not right.”
10. Inviting a person to analyze a scientific fact in a gathering.
Brother Trung is a godly friend. We honored his faith– his word –his deed. He has helped all of us. His profession is a medical doctor, dedicated to studying sciences. On an occasion, there was a gathering with all Workers and elders, brother Darrel asked doctor Trung to have a speech on analyzing a scientific phenomena purely without mentioning the faith!
We want to know… in a gathering of people with faith, what purpose it serves to invite a person to talk about science. We don’t understand.
11. The so-called Elder.
In the Protestant, they use these words Teacher, Pastor, Bishop, Elder, Deacon, Saint, Believer….to name the position in their religion. But we use: Way of God instead of Protestant. God’s children instead of Believer, Saint.
The person who is in charge at a church, and leading a Meeting is called Elder. It is the same word in the Protestant Way.
We want to know…Do we need to have another name to replace?
12. A model form to declare to the Authorities.
When we have a gathering, the authorities can knock at the door at any time and question us about that gathering.
We need to have some entries that are unified throughout the country to fill the form. For example:
- Who is the head?
- The name of religion?
- Method of working?
13. The Person Substitute.
Previously, every God’s child is prepared to answer the authorities that brother Hoa and brother Châu are in charge. Their address is at 19 cx Trần Quang Diệu- Ward 14 -Distr 3 - Saigon. But now they are not in the work, they don’t have a stable address as usual.
We want to know…Which Workers are now substitutes for the two brothers who are no longer in the work anymore. Who is in legal charge with the Authorities, their address, their lodging in order that all the Friends can answer the same to the Authorities at any time they ask.
14. Why two words?
Once the Authorities asked every citizen to declare their religion. The Workers asked Hải Trân to send message to God’s people stating that: “We follow God, gather at home.” If they don’t accept we can declare that we are Protestants.
We want to know… why there are two answers.
15. The Promise.
In the last page of our hymn book: “after 2 years there will be a new version.”
But now…Five years has passed and the Workers don’t have a word about this.
16. Composing Hymns.
Besides the hymn book using in the Meeting, we have other hymns from USA, Canada, India, Korea. The Workers and God’s people in other countries can compose hymns, so can Workers and God’ people in Vietnam compose hymn? Especially in Vietnam, there are 5 hymns dedicated to the wedding being used for many years previously. (One hymn from Uncle Fred and translated by brother Châu, the rest are composed by brother Bau in lyric part.)
We want to ask…In our family’s wedding, if we want to sing one of these songs, is it alright to sing as we did in the previous years?
In the past, in order to prepare for an occasion of baptism, the Workers usually speak clearly about the meaning and purpose of baptism especially for those who were ready for baptism. After that those who were ready, they would stand up to manifest their willingness and the Workers baptize them without differentiating young or old, how long in God’s way.
But now… The Workers say those who will be baptized must reach 14 years old and have follow God for a length of time.
We want to know…Is that stipulation right?
Part II. The Things We Have Seen
We are sheep which always watch and follow the examples of the shepherds.
“the shepherd goes ahead and the sheep just follow him.”
Following are those that we have seen:
1. There are very poor families among God’s people. Yet, some Workers use expensive motorbikes.
2. Some Workers gave unclear information and caused our Friends to suspect one another, dividing into factions in the church. Example: saying that brother Mike couldn’t renew his visa because there had been someone who secretly reported him to the police! But we haven’t heard exactly who did it.
3. When God’s people encounter spiritual problems, the Workers of the field didn’t ask them directly the cause to help them. They only decided: “He or She is forbidden to pray and to share in the Meetings. And he or she should go to Gospel Meetings to start his or her work of faith again.” Some of them were really hurt and since then they left God’s House!
4. There is an old professing lady, living far from the place of Meetings. In previous years she tried to go to the Meetings although she was ill. But now her health declines, she cannot go to the Meetings. She said: “More than 4 years I have lived here, and no worker has come here to visit me, except brother Châu, who from time to time sends me a text message to encourage me." That lady is sister Nga, now she moves to Long Khánh town-Đồng Nai Province.
5. Formerly, whenever one of God’s people passed away, the Workers spared about 20-30 minutes for God’s people who are standing around the coffin to say a few words about the life of our deceased friend to comfort and encourage one another. We find this in Acts 9:36-39. In recent funerals, we haven’t seen this anymore!
6. We long that the Workers of the field, coming to the house of God’s people, they should bring the Gospel and peace. Please don’t bring bad stories about others to tell us, even a little one. And also, please don’t ask questions that make us confused, doubtful and puzzled.
7. In order not to make God’s people fear and worry or make them tell lies to the authorities, we propose that foreign Workers should stay at the hotel at night and limit their walking outside at daytime, especially in rural areas.
8. In order to have a godly atmosphere in the Meetings, we suggest that all should stand up when praying or sharing.
9. There is a Meeting for young people yearly. We don’t find any Meeting for middle-aged or the old ones!
Why is there a difference made between the old and the young?
10. Finally, we hope that the Workers will be an example to us and teach us to obey God’s Word as in the Bible and please don’t interfere in the private affairs of our family.
Part III - Supplication
Hearing and seeing good things we cannot mention all, we only mention a few things we have seen and heard that we don’t understand clearly. So we wish the Workers will answer clearly to each one of God’s people which is right and which is wrong? And we need the Workers to tell us again what things are true? We are very grateful.
Love in Jesus Christ,
Some of God’s people in Vietnam
(More than a dozen Elders and old Friends, some still in their Fellowship).
LINK to TMB Thread
Posted on TMB on December 13, 2013
Nguyễn Xuân Hoàn posted the following on TMB on January 31, 2014:
My name Nguyễn Xuân Hoàn. I'm Minh Thanh's husband. I'm used to be a Catholic. My big family and all my relatives are in Catholic. I'm in the way alone. I am happy to have my wife and two children accompanying me on this way.
I tell you a little about why I followed on this way. I was born and raised in Catholic. I was very zealous with my belief. Since my childhood, I studied and lived in a school belonging to catholic with many priests as teachers. Some teachers were French. My mother loved me and taught me to say prayers. My mother and the seven brothers and sisters went to church every day.
In my heart I wanted to know more about God, but going to the church attending the services and listening to the preaching of the priests, I didn't understand much the Bible.
In 1973 I was studying at the University of Dalat. One day the class was over and I came home. When I passed through the exit gate, I saw two ladies, one American the other Vietnamese. They were distributing the inviting cards. I received one. I read on it. They invited to the gospel meeting at a rented room in a private school in Dalat.
I didn't go to any preaching places of some denominations because the priests said to me that it was not good to go there. But in the inviting card, besides the gospel meeting, there was a Bible class in English. So I chose to go to this Bible class with intention to learn English, not listening to gospel meeting according to the advice of the priest.
At the first time of Bible class, I was impressed of an American speaking Vietnamese extremely beautifully, fluently. We began with book Luke. The servant (at that time she only introduced herself as servant of God, I didn't hear the word worker) asked each student to read one phrase, then she explained fully the meaning of that sentence. We rotated to read from this chapter to another, and after a few months I felt very interested because I understood any part of Bible I had learnt.
I uttered that I had seen Jesus as if Our Lord was present somewhere and I had courage to have another step--going to the gospel meeting. She preached in Vietnamese clearly, concisely, full of meaning with Hanoi accent (the most standard Vietnamese accent). If we hadn't seen her, only listened to her voice I am sure we would have confused her with a 100 per cent Vietnamese. Her name was Bonnie Dahlin. And after some months, Auntie Phyllis Munn was added to them. Auntie Phyllis spoke Vietnamese the same as Auntie Bonnie, she was gentler. You can imagine how excited I was. I professed at that time and a few months later the liberation day came. All the foreigner servants left the country. I was only believer in Dalat, it is far from the main city of Saigon 300 km.
Before Auntie Bonnie left, she wrote me a letter to the effect that "Don't be afraid of death but afraid that whether we will still keep our faith to the end"
On the liberation day, all foreigner servants left Vietnam. I was a newbie believer then. I was thankful to two brother local servants and three sister local ones sometimes visiting me. Some friends in Saigon took notes in the gospel meetings (the new government continued permitting the gospel meeting lasting some years later) and sent through post office to me. Every year I went to Saigon to attend convention on three first days of new lunar year.
On this occasion, I encountered Minh Thanh and made family with her. She left Saigon and moved 300 km to Dalat. Although we didn't have any servants of God as often, our Sunday morning meetings happened between both of us and a few friends later.
In 2002 we moved back to Saigon, after more than 20 years together in Dalat. My wife had an optimistic view to say that we returned Saigon after a honey moon trip of more than 20 years.
Through the posts of my wife, you can know the rest of my story.
I always thank God for keeping our faith, our little family until today and heading towards future I would ask God to continue keeping our faith and our little family to the end.
I cherish the word from Edgar Massey: "The only thing necessary is the genuine and beautiful spirit of Christ."
Nowadays, I can't ride motorbike because 3 years ago I had a stroke. My wife instructs me to use the bus. One time, at the central bus station, I got on a bus. I didn't know whether the bus pass by the place A where I wanted to reach. I asked the people surrounding. There was one man eager to tell me "the bus not passing by the place A" and he enthusiastically guided me what bus number to take. I was very grateful to him. And I related to spiritual things.
I used to be on the bus of Catholic, and someone told me that the bus I was on could not take me to the destination. Now I was on the bus of Two by Two. Once more I didn't see the signs that led me to Heaven, and I thank to Cherie Kropp with the website Telling The Truth which discloses many truth, saying to me loudly that the bus Two by Two doesn't take me to Kingdom of God. I can confirm this alert through the Canadian workers and overseers behaviour. I didn't see the Spirit of God in them. That's why I value the utterance of Edgar Massey: "The only thing necessary is the genuine and beautiful spirit of Christ"
May brothers and sisters everywhere pray to God for us to have the beautiful Spirit of God, and wisdom for us to choose a true bus to the Kingdom of God. By the way, I am typing this on the first day of new lunar year. I would like to wish all of you a new year full of health and grace from our Lord.
LINK to TMB Thread
Posted on TMB on January 31, 2014
Nguyễn Xuân Hoàn posted the following on TMB on February 15, 2014:
This morning, I talked to my wife that I had been lucky because I had met a staff of workers that only concern to sow a seed of Christ in my heart until Christ became greater in my heart and they became smaller. I saw clearly the same as John Baptist said: ‘He must increase, but I must decrease’ John 3:30. They helped me day by day to depend more and more on the Bible and depend less and less on them.
Uncle Fred's staff comprised of Auntie Bonnie Dahlin, Auntie Phyllis Munn, Uncle Edwin, Uncle Cecil, Uncle Christie, Uncle Châu, Uncle Hoa, Sister Thư Anh, Sister Băng Ngọc. I am very very grateful to them. I didn't have a lot of time with them due to the Liberation Day came very soon to me. But I continued being fed by Uncle Hoa, Uncle Châu, Sister Thư Anh, Ssister Băng Ngọc.
In my opinion, maybe not true, Uncle Fred's staff was a particular one, hard for me to encounter a such similar staff nowaday. Now the workers(in my country) demand the friends "because the teacher staff is a precious, dedicated group of men and women who deserve our highest respect" (quote from Lyle Shultz's letter). I feel he wanted "the worker increase, Christ decrease."
Many things have happened which made me worry: ‘Where is the true way of God?’ At first, we thought the Vietnam problem was the only one in the world but gradually we learned of the problem in Alberta, Canada. We felt being comforted and day by day as we realise that this is a global issue, and we know the history of 2x2 cult and many other things.
We thank God for opening our eyes such as the Samaritan woman asked Jesus: ‘Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.’
Jesus answered: ‘Believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.’ (John 4:20-24)
So I have had the answer, we worship the Father neither in Catholic way nor in Two by Two church. We worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth.
Once more, we have a lot thanks to Edgar Massey to have contact with us. And he has kept carefully the Account of Alberta and now he has done the same for the Vietnam account, very easy to follow and understand.
We have a lot thanks to Cherie Kropp for her Telling The Truth Website and the Vietnam Account. I think she has done her best to be true, exact, clearly. Her work will be rewarded by our God. Her effort brings many souls closer to God, not to any human organisation.
We have a lot thanks to my wife's friend in States for introducing us to website Truth Meeting Board.
We have a lot thanks to Administrator of Website Truth Meeting Boards for giving us opportunity to encounter many precious friends on the board, through their experiences, their thoughts, their choices partly take part in our choices. We don't feel lonely any more. We have more peace, more calm and the most important we help each other to see and have more Spirit of Christ.
We have a lot of thanks to our friends on this Board. I think we only begin our new chapter, we will continue to share our experience on our life's way in order in the end we can meet our Father and our Lord in joy.
LINK to TMB Thread
Posted on TMB on February 15, 2014
Nguyễn Xuân Hoàn's 2 Heart Letters to Brother Chau
20 August 2013
Dear brother Châu
I have seldom written letter to you. After I read your heart letter, I also want to send you my heart letter.
Since I knew this way, I have completely believed that this is the true way. But when troubles happened, I discovered many things opposite. So I have to pause to fathom, to look up in the Bible to know more surely the will of God.
The first thing workers explained to me that this way doesn’t have an organisation, and workers are sent out by faith. But through what happened to you, I see that this way has a very tight organisation. The position of overseer has a lot of power which I haven’t known before (perhaps it was concealed). This position is able to allow one person to be a worker and to kick another worker out of his place (I see clearly through Overseer Dale Schultz and your case)
Thịnh (a sister worker’s brother) confided to me that every time mentioning Darrel with Cường and Hải, they appeared to be very fearful. (Cường and Hải are workers of Darrel’s staff). Each month the overseer prepares a cover letter for each worker. (Also how they get the money--I will say more in a different letter) International overseer--regional overseer--national overseer. Overseer divides a nation into fields. Every two workers are in charge a field. A worker of this field mustn’t touch the field of other workers. Below workers are Elders. Elders must keep track every member of their own church and report to their workers.
Secondly, the workers explained to me that this way originates from the first century, from Jesus’ time. But in fact it isn’t true. This way was founded by a Scottish man, namely William Irvine. At first he was a preacher with the FAITH MISSION Society. He was sent out to Ireland to preach and there he founded the way of two by two in 1897. Thus, the concept of going two by two, the words such as “WORKER, FRIEND, FIELD, CONVENTION” and many other words are borrowed from FAITH MISSION Society.
In the beginning when I sang the hymns, I thought these hymns only belonged to the Way of God, and that some songs were from the first century or from century of 11, 12. But in fact, Hymns Old and New was first printed in 1914. Previously, they used the GO-PREACHER’S HYMN BOOK in which many songs belonged to Faith Mission Society or Protestant.
Mathew10:6-8: Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. As you go, proclaim this message: “The kingdom of heaven has come near.” Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give. Do not get any gold or silver or copper to take with you in your belts.
Mark 6:7-10: Calling the Twelve to him, he began to send them out two by two and gave them authority over impure spirits. These were his instructions: “Take nothing for the journey except a staff—no bread, no bag, no money in your belts. Wear sandals but not an extra shirt. Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you leave that town.”
The workers do not follow many of the instructions in the above scriptures that Wm Irvine used to support workers going two by two.
1-Here, Jesus sent the disciples two by two. He didn’t allow them to go to the Gentiles but to the lost sheep of Israel.
2-He sent them out with instructions take nothing for the journey. In fact Morris moved the house from this place to another, he used two mini-truckload of possessions. Not only Morris, the other workers are the same.
3-The message they proclaimed “the Kingdom of Heaven has come near.”
4-When the disciples returned, they boasted that they could drive out the demons. Do any workers drive out the demons?
So they used these passages to make foundation for going two by two. Is it true? In Acts there are some going alone, others going 3, going 4. If I have time I will do statistic for you.
You have raised the matter of global fellowship. I don’t understand how this matter to relates to our salvation. In mentioning the global fellowship, I think Catholics have the global fellowship ten thousand times more than two by two. The important thing our Lord taught, “You should love each other, by this sign people will know you are my disciples.” I never read “if you have global fellowship, you will be my disciples.” And I saw in this way they treat you very badly, although in this land you and brother Hoa dropped sweat, dropped tears to build up, then the strange Canadians took name “workers”, “overseer” came here scrambling for the sheep and expelled you. I want to ask you where is the love? Where is the honesty?
When talking about the flock, we must talk about the shepherd . John 10:11-12: “ I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it.”
Whoever lets our Lord lead their life is in the flock of God. If the Bhuddists or the Muslims return to God and let God lead their life, they are in the flock of God.
We cannot say that the way of God is a system or a group of people. John 14:6: “Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
This passage lets me see clearly the life of Jesus is The Way. This is the thing that confuses many people and sometimes they deliberately confuse people when mentioning the true way as being the two by two way--when it’s a human organisation.
Ephesian 4:4: “There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called;” You quoted this passage in your letter. There is one body. Can we say the two by two is the body of Christ? I didn’t see any image of Christ at these overseers. How can I call this organisation the Body of Christ? I must see the hand of God in it first.
When I met this way I considered Catholic as wrong. But now I have seen the dishonesty of overseer and workers. I have to examine again every aspect and look it up the Bible and I see this two by two religion is the same. So I feel happy because through the truth that I have found out. I felt I was released from the bonds of two by two religion. They often use words frightening others who don’t want to continue following this two by two.
I obey the teaching of Jesus to worship God accordingly by Spirit and Truth. Wherever there are two or three people in unity worshiping Him, He will be present in the middle. He insisted only two or three people, certainly not any organisation.
However I am grateful to you, brother Hoa, uncle Fred, uncle Edwin, uncle Cecil, uncle Christi, auntie Phyllis, auntie Bonnie who laboured so humbly that I saw our Lord in the Bible and so that I can benefit from the Bible to have more correct direction.
Nguyễn Xuân Hoàn
23 August 2013
Dear brother Châu,
Here are two things that you wrote to me. I know your heart and thank you for that.
1. I (brother Châu) only hope Hoàn not to read the stuff on Internet because they are not all true.
2. As I said: this way is the Kingdom of God, His House…we have to preserve.
I was misguided once from Catholics to two by two way. It could be a bad thing, but it could be a good thing for me, because I will be more cautious after having gone through this experience. Now I should examine everything I hear. I can not accept everything I hear without scrutinizing it for it may be false!! It was Paul who encouraged and praised the saints at Berea.
Acts 17:11: “Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.”
So I want to talk with you about these two matters above: Internet and Kingdom of God.
1. I consider the Internet as a very huge library, in which the amount of books and magazines surpasses any other libraries in the world. It is very convenient at the present time for students because the materials for reference are very abundant. Internet doesn’t have any guilt. Good or bad depends on the purpose of the user. For example, because someone surfs the internet for pornography videos, we condemn the Internet. The same as when someone enters a library to borrow pornography magazines and we persuade others not to enter that library to read. Now, I need to carefully examine the way that I have followed. I need many materials to look up. Only the Internet provides me with these materials.
Formerly, in order to learn about the religions, you had to enter the library to find in Encyclopedia. Regrettably, at that time we didn’t have the Internet. Information was very limited, so you believed that two by two was founded by Jesus according to the explanation of auntie Bonnie.
2. Now I want to talk about the Kingdom of God or the Church of God
a) What is a church?
I Corinth1:2: "To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ--their Lord and ours." This passage gives me the definition of Church. The church is those sanctified in Christ Jesus. That means a group of people, rather than an organisation or a house.
b) Who founded the Church of Christ?
I have searched all books in New Testament for the word "church." I found the first time the word "church" in the NT. Jesus used it in this passage.
Matthew 16:18: "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it."
The word "Peter" when translated from Greek word “ Petra” means “stone” (my church builded on) this rock ( Petra). Why did Jesus call Simon, son of Jonah a stone?
I referred to Mathew 16:13-14: "When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, ‘Who do people say the Son of Man is?’ They replied, ‘Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.’ "
People respected Jesus, but they only considered him at the level of man only (John Baptist, Elijah…) Mathew 16:15-17: "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven"
Peter himself exclaimed from the bottom of his heart "You are the Son of living God." Jesus immediately called him a stone. Thus anyone who recognises Jesus is the Son of the living God is also a stone. And here the word of our Lord established the church: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church" Each person with such belief is a stone and our Lord uses these stones to build on the rock, which is Jesus’ life.
I Corinth 3:11: "For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus
So God has built his Church in a manner that placing the stones on the rock, the life of our Lord Jesus. All the stones are Saints whose lives were lived according to the teaching of Jesus. When the church is established as Jesus' word, there will be a promise associated: "the gates of Hades will not overcome it". That means the church will overcome the gates of Hades, will receive the salvation of God.
To sum up, the church of God is composed of stones (group of people believing that Jesus is the Son of living God) which are built on the rock (Jesus' life).
Luke 18:8: "When the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?" When Jesus returns, He doesn't know in advance if there are any stones (faith or the church) on this earth or not. But He has the promise that the group of saints will surely receive the salvation (overcome the Hades) if their life is built on the life of Jesus.
+Catholics is false because the church is built on the lives of Popes. Many Catholic believers have deep faith in Jesus but built on a false foundation.
+Two by two is also false because the church is built on overseers and workers. Overseers said: "You are allowed to eat blood, and you can eat it without guilt." And command of overseers about "Divorce & Remarriage."
I was reminded that the foundation of the church is unchangeable. Jesus yesterday, today, tomorrow never changes.
Below are the two letters above by Xuân Hoàn to Brother Chau in Vietnamese
20 August 2013
Anh Châu kính mến,
Lâu nay em ít khi viết thư cho anh. Sau khi đọc bức tâm thư của anh, em cũng muốn viết vài hàng bức tâm thư của em.
Từ khi em biết đường lối này em hoàn toàn tin cậy đây là đường lối chân thật nhưng khi các sự việc rắc rối xảy ra, em lại phát hiện ra nhiều điều ngược lại nên em phải đứng lại để tìm hiểu, tra xem kinh Thánh để thật biết chắc chắn ý Chúa hơn.
· Điều thứ nhất, các ttc giải thích, đường lối này không có tổ chức, các ttc đi ra bằng đức tin nhưng qua vụ việc của anh, em mới thấy đường lối này có tổ chức rất chặt chẻ. Thứ nhất là chức overseer đầy quyền lực mà trước đó em chưa hề nghe biết (người ta cố ý dấu). Chức này có thể cho một người được ra làm ttc và đẩy một người khác đang làm ttc ra khỏi chức vụ và nhiều quyền uy khác nữa (em thấy rất rõ qua ông Dale Schultz với chuyện của anh).
Thịnh có tâm sự với em là mỗi lần nhắc tới ông Darrel với Cường hay với Hải thì họ tỏ ra rất sợ sệt.
Mỗi tháng overseer chuẩn bị một bao thư tiền cho mỗi worker.( Còn tiền có được như thế nào em sẽ nói chi tiết ở một thư khác)
Overseer quốc tế rồi mới đến overseer của từng quốc gia . Overseer chia một nước ra thành nhiều vùng miền gọi là Field, mỗi hai worker phụ trách một field. Worker thuộc field này không được đụng tới field của worker khác. Dưới các wokers là các trường lão. Các trưởng lão phải theo sát từng member trong hội thánh của mình.
· Điều thứ hai, các ttc đã giải thích với em là đường lối này có từ thế kỷ thứ nhất , từ thời Đức Chúa Giêsu, nhưng thực ra không phải vậy. Đường lối này được thành lập bởi một người Tô-Cách-Lan tên là William Irvine . Lúc đầu, ông làm người giảng đạo cho hội FAITH MISSION. Ông được phái sang Bắc Ái nhĩ Lan để giảng thì tại đây ông thành lập đường lối two-by-two (đi từng đôi) vào năm 1897 (cuối thế kỷ 19 đầu thế kỷ 20) . do đó, các khái niệm đi từng đôi, các từ như WORKER, FRIEND,FIELD,CONVENTION... và nhiều từ nữa là vay mượn của hội FAITH MISSION này.
Khi lúc đầu hát các bài thánh ca, em nghĩ, chỉ có trong đường lối Chúa mới có các bài này, vì đây là đường lối từ thế kỷ thứ nhất nên sẽ có các bài thành ca từ thế kỷ thứ nhất hay ít ra từ thế kỷ 11,12... nhưng thực ra cuốn HYMNS OLD AND NEW lần đầu tiên được in vào năm 1914, còn trước đó sử dụng cuốn GO PREACHER’S HYMN BOOK mà nhiều bài là của Hội FAITH MISSION, và của các phái TIN LÀNH khác , không có thánh ca nào thuộc two-by-two trước năm 1897 (năm ông IRVINE thành lập đường lối Chúa). Bây giờ nghe nhà thờ Tin Lành hát trùng các bài thánh ca của TWO BY TWO thì em không nghĩ là họ sử dụng thanh ca của mình mà ngược lại thì mới phải .
· Ma-thi-ơ 10:6-9 “Ấy đó là mười hai sứ đồ Đức Chúa Jêsus sai đi, và có truyền rằng: Đừng đi đến dân ngoại, cũng đừng vào một thành nào của dân Sa-ma-ri cả; 6 song thà đi đến cùng những con chiên lạc mất của nhà Y-sơ-ra-ên. 7 Khi đi đường, hãy rao giảng rằng: Nước thiên đàng gần rồi. 8 Hãy chữa lành kẻ đau, khiến sống kẻ chết, làm sạch kẻ phung, và trừ các quỉ. Các ngươi đã được lãnh không thì hãy cho không. 9 Đừng đem vàng, hoặc bạc, hoặc tiền trong lưng các ngươi; 10 cũng đừng đem cái bao đi đường, hoặc hai áo, hoặc giày, hoặc gậy; vì người làm việc đáng được đồ ăn.
Mac 6:7-10 “Ngài bèn kêu mười hai sứ đồ, bắt đầu sai đi từng đôi, ban quyền phép trừ tà ma. 8 Ngài truyền cho sứ đồ đi đường đừng đem chi theo hết, hoặc bánh, hoặc bao, hoặc tiền bạc trong dây lưng, chỉ đem một cây gậy mà thôi; 9 chỉ mang dép, đừng mặc hai áo.”
Đây là các văn bản Kinh Thánh mà ông William Irvine trích dẫn để hổ trợ cho lý thuyết đi từng đôi, nhưng em cũng thấy rất gượng ép.
1- Ở đây Chúa sai họ đi từng đôi, nhưng không được đến dân ngoại mà đến chiên lạc mất của nhà Y-sơ-ra-en. Thực tế các workers đang giảng cho dân ngoại.
2-Ngài sai các sứ đồ đừng đem chi theo hết. Thực tế ông Morris dọn nhà từ chỗ này tới chỗ khác phải dùng vài xe tải. Không riêng gì ông Morris mà các worker khác cũng vậy thôi.
3-Sứ điệp mà họ rao truyền là “ Nước thiên đàng gần rồi”. Khi vị vua ở đâu thì vương quốc cũng ở đó điều này đồng nghĩa với Đức Chúa Giê-su sẽ đến các nơi mà các sứ đồ đã đi qua.
4-Trừ các quỷ, các môn đồ khi về đã khoe với Chúa là họ đã đuổi được các quỷ. Có worker nào đuổi được các quỷ không?
Vậy dùng câu văn này để làm nền tảng cho việc đi từng đôi có đúng không? Trong công vụ các sứ đồ có người đi giảng một mình, có trường hợp đi 3,đi 4, đi 5...Có thời giờ em sẽ thống kê ra cho anh thấy.
· Anh có đặt vấn đề thông công toàn cầu. Em không hiểu điều này quan hệ gì với sự cứu rỗi. Nếu nói thông công toàn cầu thì Đạo Công Giáo có thông công toàn cầu còn gấp vạn lần đạo two-by-two này. Điều quan trọng Chúa dạy là “các ngươi hãy yêu thương nhau, bởi dấu này mà người ta biết các ngươi là môn đồ của Ta”. Em chưa hề đọc được lời Chúa dạy là Các ngươi có mối thông công toàn cầu là môn đồ của Ta. Và trong Đường lối này em đã thấy họ đã đối xử với anh thật là tệ bạc, mặc dầu phần đất này anh và anh Hoa đổ mồ hôi, đổ nước mắt mà gây dựng nên, rồi những người xa lạ từ Canada mang danh là worker, là overseer đến đây để giành dựt chiên, đẩy các anh ra. Vậy thử hỏi tình yêu thương ở đâu? Sự chân thật ở đâu?
· Khi nói tới RÀN CHIÊN CỦA CHÚA là phải nói tới người chăn chiên. Giăng 10:11-12 “Ta là người chăn hiền lành; người chăn hiền lành vì chiên mình phó sự sống mình. 12 Kẻ chăn thuê chẳng phải là người chăn, và chiên không phải thuộc về nó. Nếu thấy muôn sói đến thì nó bỏ chiên”. Bất cứ ai để Chúa dẫn dắt mình là đang ở trong ràn chiên của Chúa. Những người đạo Phật, đạo Hồi... mà họ quay lại với Chúa, để Chúa dẫn dắt đời mình là họ đang ở trong ràn chiên của Chúa.
· Khi nói tới Đường lối Chúa, không thể chỉ một hệ thống tổ chức hay nột nhóm người mà nói đó là Đường lối Chúa. Giăng 14: 6” Vậy Đức Chúa Jêsus đáp rằng: Ta là đường đi , lẽ thật, và sự sống; chẳng bởi ta thì không ai được đến cùng Cha.” Câu văn này cho thấy rõ chính đời sống của Chúa mới là đường đi. Đây là điều mà chính em cũng như nhiều người khác đã nhầm lẫn và người ta cũng cố ý tạo nhầm lẫn khi nói tới con Đường thật là đạo two by two, một hệ thống tổ chức của loài người.
· Eph 4:4 Ch ỉ có m ộ t thân th ể , m ộ t Thánh Linh, nh ư anh em b ở i ch ứ c ph ậ n mình đã đ ượ c g ọ i đ ế n m ộ t s ự trông c ậ y mà thôi;
Đây là câu anh đã trích dẫn trong thư. Chỉ có một thân thể của Chúa. Vậy thì có thể nói đạo two by two là thân thể của Chúa đượ không? khi em không thấy hình ảnh của Chúa nơi những người overseer này, vậy làm sao gọi đây là thân thể Chúa. Thân thể Chúa trước hết phải thấy được bóng dáng của Chúa trước đã.
Còn nhiều điều em muốn tâm sự với anh nhưng thư quá dài, em hẹn thơ sau.
Khi gặp đường lối này em cho công giáo là sai. Nhưng bây giờ thấy sự không chân thật của các overseer và worker. Em lại phải đi tra xét lại từng vấn đề tìm hiểu và tra xem KInh Thánh, em cũng thấy đạo two by two này cũng vậy. Cho nên em thật vui mừng vì qua các lẽ thật mà em tìm được ,em cảm thấy được sự buông tha bởi những ràng buộc của đạo two by two, họ thường dùng những lời để làm cho người khác phải lo sợ khi không đi trong đạo two by two này.
Em theo lời Chúa dạy là dùng tâm thần và lẽ thật mà thờ phượng Ngài. Nơi nào có 2 hoặc 3 người hợp nhất lại thì có Ngài ở giữa. Ngài nói chỉ cần 2.3 người thôi, chứ không cần một tổ chức nào cả.
Dù sao em cũng cám ơn anh và anh Hoa, Bác Fred Allen, Bác Edwin, Bác Cecil, Bác Christi, cô Phillis, cô Bonnie đã sống và lao khổ thực sự để em thấy được Chúa trong Kinh Thánh để dến bây giờ em có thể nhờ Kinh Thánh để được đi đúng đường hơn.
Nguyễn Xuân Hoàn
23 August 2013
Anh Châu kính mến,
Đây là hai điều mà anh đã viết cho em. Em biết nỗi lòng của anh và em rất cám ơn anh.
1. Anh chỉ mong Hoàn đừng đọc những gì trên Internet vì đó không phải là tất cả sự thật….
2. Như anh đã nói: đây là Nước của Chúa, Nhà của Ngài …mình phải gìn giữ.
Em đã bị lầm lạc một lần rồi từ Đạo Công Giáo qua Đạo Two by two này. Có thể đó là một điều xấu, nhưng cũng có thể là một điều tốt cho em. Vì qua kinh nghiệm này em sẽ thận trọng hơn.
Em phải tra xét mọi điều em nghe. Em không thể để mọi điều tiêm nhiễm vào đầu óc của mình lúc nào không hay, mà điều đó lại sai lầm!!!. chính ông Phao lô đã khuyến khích va khen những thánh đồ ở thành Bê-rê . Công-vụ các Sứ-đồ 17:11 “ Những người nầy có ý hẳn hoi hơn người Tê-sa-lô-ni-ca, đều sẵn lòng chịu lấy đạo, ngày nào cũng tra xem Kinh Thánh, để xét lời giảng có thật chăng .”
Cho nên em cũng muốn bàn với anh hai vấn đề nêu trên là Internet và Nước của Chúa.
1.Internet đối với em như là một thư viện lớn vô cùng, trong đó có số lượng sách báo vượt trội hơn bất cứ một thư viện nào khác trên thế giới.Các sinh viên bây giờ thuận lợi là tài liệu tham khảo thật là phong phú. Internet không có tội lỗi gì hết cả. Tốt hay xấu là tuỳ thuộc mục đích của người sử dụng. có người vào Internet để tìm sách báo phim ảnh bậy bạ. Không vì vậy mà kết án Internet, cũng như có người khác vào thư viện mượn các tạp chí khiêu dâm để rồi mình khuyên mọi người đừng vào đọc trong thư viện đó.
Bây giờ em rất cần hiểu rõ đương lối lâu nay em đi. Em cần nghiên cứu thật nhiều tài liệu để tham khảo. Chỉ có Internet cung cấp cho em những tài liệu đó. Em đã tìm được nhiều nguồn đáng tin cậy như tờ báo “Impartial Reporter” của Ái Nhĩ Lan đã ra đời trước năm 1900, viết tường thuật một giáo phái mới bắt đầu lúc đó là đạo Two by two. Tờ báo giấy này được nhiều người mượn quá !... nên để bảo vệ chúng, họ chụp hình lại và gởi lên Internet.
Hồi xưa, để tìm hiểu các đạo giáo, anh cũng từng vào thư viện để tìm trong các bách khoa từ điển đó sao, chỉ tiếc là chưa có Internet, thông tin hạn chế nên anh tin đạo Two by two này có từ ban đầu theo như lời cô Bonnie giải thích.(Nhiều người đã cảm thấy đây là một sự lừa dối, hay ttc nào nói như vậy cũng là nạn nhân bị lừa dối của các ttc trước họ nữa!!!)
3.Bây giờ em muốn bàn tới Nước của Chúa hay Hội Thánh của Chúa.
Hội thánh là gì? Ai thành lập Hội Thánh của Chúa?
a.Hội Thánh là gì? ICô-rinh-tô 1:2 “gởi cho Hội thánh Đức Chúa Trời tại thành Cô-rinh-tô, tức là cho những người đã được nên thánh trong Đức Chúa Jêsus Christ , được gọi làm thánh đồ, lại cho mọi người bất luận nơi nào, cầu khẩn danh Đức Chúa Jêsus Christ chúng ta, là Chúa của những người ấy và của chúng ta:”
Phần KT này đã cho em định nghĩa về Hội Thánh là nhóm người, chứ không phải là một tổ chức hay một nhà thờ.
b.Ai thành lập Hội Thánh Đấng Christ? Em đã tra hết các sách trong Tân Ước từ Hội Thánh, em chỉ thấy câu sau là từ đầu tiên Chúa nói tới Hội Thánh. Ngài khẳng định là Ngài thành lập Hôi Thánh như sau:
Ma-thi-ơ 16:18 “Còn ta, ta bảo ngươi rằng: Ngươi là Phi-e-rơ , ta sẽ lập Hội thánh ta trên đá nầy , các cửa âm phủ chẳng thắng được hội đó.” “Phi-e-rơ” dịch từ tiếng Hy-lạp là Petra viên đá, hòn đá. (Hội Thánh ta trên) đá : dịch từ Petro tảng đá.
Tại sao Chúa gọi ông Si-môn, con Giô-na là viên đá? Em liên hệ trong Ma-thi-ơ 16:13-17. Chúa hỏi các môn đồ người ta nói Chúa là ai. Họ nói nào là Giăng Báp-tít, nào là Ê-li, nào là Giê-rê-mi…Vậy người ta rất coi trọng Chúa nhưng tầm nhìn của họ vẫn coi Chúa là loài người mà thôi.
Sau đó Chúa hỏi các môn đồ nói Ngài là ai. Phi-e-rơ thốt lên “Chúa là Đấng Christ, Con Đức Chúa Trời hằng sống” Chính Phi-e-rơ từ trong lòng thốt lên điều này mà Chúa gọi ông là viên đá. Cho nên bất cứ ai từ lòng mình tự thốt lên “Chúa là Con Đức Chúa Trời” , người ấy là đã viên đá.
Và đây là lời của Chúa lập Hội Thánh, ta sẽ lập Hội Thánh ta trên đá nầy, những con người có niềm tin mà Chúa gọi là viên đá được xây trên tảng đá nầy chính là đời sống của Đấng Christ.
I Cô-rinh-tô 3:11 “Vì, chẳng ai có thể lập một nền khác ngoài nền đã lập, là Đức Chúa Jêsus Christ.”
Vậy Chúa đã xây dựng Hội Thánh của Ngài theo cách thức đặt các viên đá trên tảng đá là đời sống của Đức Chúa Giê-su. Mọi viên đá là các thánh đồ phải tra xét đời sống của mình có sống theo lời Chúa dạy hay không. Và khi Hội Thánh thực hiện đúng như lời Chúa đã lập thì có lời hứa kèm theo “các cửa âm phủ chẳng thắng được hội đó.” Có nghĩa là Hội Thánh thắng hơn, nhận được sự cứu rỗi của Chúa.
Tóm lại Hội Thánh thật của Chúa là các viên đá (nhóm người) xây trên tảng đá là đời sống của Đức Chúa Giê-su.
Luca 18:8 “Ta nói cùng các ngươi, Ngài sẽ vội vàng xét lẽ công bình cho họ. Song khi Con người đến, há sẽ thấy đức tin trên mặt đất chăng?” Chính Chúa cũng chưa biết có còn một đức tin nào(hay Hội Thánh) khi Chúa trở lại trái đất này hay không?
Nhưng Chúa đã hứa nhóm người thánh của Chúa chắc chắn sẽ nhận được sự cứu rỗi (thắng hơn các cửa âm phủ) nếu được xây trên tảng đá là đời sống của Ngài.
+Đạo Công Giáo sai lầm vì không xây các viên đá trên Đời sống của Đức Chúa Giê-su mà xây trên đời sống các Giáo Hoàng. Nhiều giáo dân công giáo có niềm tin sâu đậm nơi Đức Chúa Giê-su nhưng lại đặt sai nền tảng.
+Đạo Two by two cũng sai lầm vì đặt nền tảng trên Overseer. Overseer phán “được phép ăn huyết” là cứ việc ăn bất chấp điều dạy dỗ của Kinh Thánh. Overseer này cho phép ly dị rồi tái hôn (Overseer: Eldon Tenniswood
http://professing.proboards.com/thread/19703 ) còn overseer khác thì không???
Hội Thánh của Đấng Christ hôm qua, hôm nay, và mãi mãi không hề thay đổi vì Chúa thành lập là viên đá trên tảng đá.
Còn đạo Two by two này thì thay đổi quá chừng. Trong KT, em cố tìm chức Overseer nhưng không hề tìm thấy. em lại đọc xem có sứ đồ nào cầm quyền trên các sứ đồ khác chăng? Cũng không có. Các sứ đồ đi đây, đi đó, giảng cho ai theo sự hướng dẫn của Đức Thánh Linh.
Nói chung, Hội thánh của Chúa là nhóm người từ xa xưa, bây giờ, cho đến khi Ngài trở lại (có thể đã chết hay còn sống) đã tin Đức Chúa Giê-su là con Đức Chúa Trời và xây dựng đời sống của mình trên tảng đá là đời sống của Đức Chúa Giê-su.
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010
To: Hoan Thanh
From: Hoa (A.H)
I have read your letter carefully. Perhaps I should advise you to keep silent, pray, and wait for the will of God. Brother Chau is a person with his own troubles but chooses not to voice those troubles out loud. But since we are outsiders to his troubles and thus not able to comprehend what he is going through; we should keep out of his business. We must have faith and trust in God, that God is righteous. While Brother Chau is in his time of difficulty, we must place our trust in God and for God to bring Brother Chau's troubles to an end. The law of SOWING & REAPING of God is very strict and clear. Everything has its own timing. Any arguments originate from WHY-BECAUSE always expose its lacking. The fact that only by the love we can have the sympathy is satisfactory in any circumstances. I would like to stop here
Brother Hoa (A.H)