The REAL TRUTH about "the truth"
Life and Ministry of William Irvine

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Chapter 24
Revised September 2, 2010

The Australian State Elders
1955: The Victorian Controversy
November 13, 1953 - William (Bill) Carroll dies
1954 Guildford Meeting & Report  

The Australian State Elders: Originally, workers from the British Isles who were on the 1905 Workers List held all the Australian state elderships. By 1950, they had held their senior positions for about 40 years. They were:

John Hardie of New South Wales until 1961. (1870-1961)
Bill Carroll of Victoria/Tasmania 1913 until 1953. (1876-1953)
Thomas Turner of Queensland 1924 until 1959. (1877-1959) (John Sullivan 1906-1924)
Willie Hughes of South Australia 1922 until 1944 (when he became Elder of New Zealand)(born 1880-1966)(Adam Hutchison until 1922)
Sam Jones of Western Australia 1939 until 1946. (born 1887-1946)(Tom Turner until 1924)
Wilson McClung of New Zealand 1944 until 1963. (born 1868-1944)

Wilson and Annie McClung were a married couple of workers who came to Australia and New Zealand from Ireland in 1908. They labored in Victoria until 1914 when Bill and Maggie Carroll came to Victoria in 1913 with their 13 year old daughter, and Bill Carroll assumed the Eldership of the work in Victoria and Tasmania, Australia and remained in that position for 40 years, until his death in 1953, aged 77 years. The McClungs left Australia in 1914 and Wilson McClung became the Overseer for New Zealand until his death.

William Charles (Bill) Carroll and his wife, Margaret (Hastings) Carroll were from the village of Rathmolyon, Ireland, which is located about 25 miles northwest of Dublin.  Bill Carroll was born August 15, 1876, at Newtown, Moynalty, Kells, County Meath, the eldest of 6 children.  Margaret was born April 20, 1875.  She was from Coragh, Rathmolyon, Co. Meath, Ireland.

Bill Carroll and Maggie Hastings were married on June 6, 1901, in the Church of Ireland at Rathmolyon, County Meath.  Click Here to view their wedding photo.  "Bill Carroll...was a (land) steward at Captain Fowlers, Rathmolyon, County Meath." (John Long's Journal)  The Author visited this church in August 2004.  He was 25 and she was 26 years old when they married.  Their only child, a daughter, May, was born in 1902.  She married Adolph ("Dolph") Schultz who was in the work for a few years in the 1920s and they resided in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.  May is the author of four hymns in the 1951 Edition of Hymns Old & New. 

Bill and Maggie Carroll entered the work in 1903 and preached in the British Isles before they arrived in Australia in 1913.  Maggie died in 1944 and Bill died in 1953, aged 77 years.  Bill's brother Jack (John Thomas) and his sisters May and Frances (Fannie) were also workers until their deaths.  Jack was Overseer of Western USA and Canada from 1907 until his death.  Click Here to view photographs of Maggie Carroll and her daughter, taken at Crocknacrieve Convention in 1913.  She is the lady in the white blouse on the second row with the little girl (May) standing beside her. In the picture of the cooks, Maggie Carroll is the only lady in the picture. 

1955: THE VICTORIAN CONTROVERSY:  For the last 10 years of his life, Bill Carroll lived in a "permanent" residence called "Rosebud".  His wife died 9 years before Bill.  Rosebud was a house located about 80k south of Melbourne, provided by the Carroll's daughter and son-in-law. In the latter years of Bill Carroll's life, "Two sister workers & a brother stayed with him at Rosebud to look after him, when there were open homes who would gladly receive him & cater for his needs & do the superintending of his meals necessitated by the fact that he was a diabetic.  This went on for ten years.  These workers had no gospel meetings while at Rosebud." (Click Here for The Record of the Guildford Meeting in 1954)

Many did not approve of Bill retiring to Rosebud with workers waiting on his needs.  "--this, we greatly regret. We feel that what happened has been a digression from the way in which the work began--both in our day & Jesus' day. We trust there will never be a repetition of these happenings…It would have been more expedient if objections to the permanent residence at "Rosebud," Victoria had been considered.  The "Rosebud" dwelling had been a cause of contention in other countries, as well as in Australia & it should have been done away with to save trouble & brethren from stumbling." (Click Here for The Record of The Guildford Meeting in 1954)  NOTE:  the wording used in the above quote indicates there was definitely a beginning of the work in the lifetime of these men:  "from the way in which the work began--both in our day."

During the 1950s, Bill Carroll excommunicated many of the friends in Victoria and South Australia, for not taking sides and supporting Bill Carroll.   The reason for their excommunication was not always made known to the victims.  Many did not receive a hearing. “Week after week numbers were put out including whole churches. No one knew why and appeals were sent to senior workers to come over and help us, and give us a hearing."  (Eileen Matz letter 7/26/54)  "About the same time, schism occurred in South Australia, where two conventions were cancelled and several families cast out." (Secret Sect Footnote 10, Pg 96 - E. Cooney Letter to E. & M. Hammond 8/24/53)  

Parents, along with their innocent children, were put out of the fellowship. Mervyn Schmidt wrote:  “I professed at 12 yrs of age.  At 13, in the 1950s, I was excommunicated, along with my parents and many others in the states of Victoria and South Australia, as a result of a purge by William Carroll. In my case, my only crime was I was the son of my father.  I don't think anyone thought about where that left me?  At that time I thought I was in 'the only right way.'  After I had been removed from the 'only right way,' I wondered was I now going to heaven or hell?"

At that time, the fellowship was split into 3 main factions:
•         The main 2x2 body (CC sect - Carrollites; Bill, Jack and Willie Jamieson)
•         The (Hardie and Hughes group - supported by Geo. Walker)
•         Those who were excommunicated with or loyal to Edward Cooney

There were also:

•         Those who were recently excommunicated (Outcasts)
•         Those who were remained in isolation - waiting for things to be straightened out in the church

Separate fellowship meetings for the various groups were held. Children and teenagers of both groups attended school together, but did not meet for worship services with each other.  Things went on like this for a few years.  Eventually, the first two groups were united again. Mervin Schmidt wrote:  “For approximately 4 years, about 16 of us met in our home, unofficially.  We kept a meeting going with others who had been put out of fellowship.  These were some of the best meetings I ever had, I guess because of our need at the time.  We were reinstated again after this with the help of George Walker, USA, and Jack Forbes from England.”

NOVEMBER 13, 1953:   William (Bill) Carroll died, nine (9) years after his wife had passed away.  He was survived by his only child, a daughter, May (Carroll) Shultz, born in 1901.  The work in Victoria was in care of Chris Williams (the eldest worker), overseer of Tasmania. There are two stories as to how Chris Williams was appointed Bill Carroll's replacement. One was that Bill Carroll designated Chris and did not consult with the other Australian state elder workers, who thought "…the responsible workers should have been consulted with regard to getting their approval of who should succeed our departed brother in the oversight in Victoria." The other is that the Victorian workers elected Chris Williams to take the oversight, but this did not meet with the approval of most of the other Australian state elders.
 
In 1954, at the request of some distressed Outcasts in several Australian states, Eddie Cooney (then 88 years old) traveled from Ireland to Australia.  Eddie went to Mildura, Victoria because about 20 had been put out of fellowship there; also, Cooney had some followers living in Mildura.  The head worker from U.K. (possibly Jack Forbes) called for a REUNION MEETING in Mildura.  The purpose of the meeting was to reconcile the problems created by the split in Victoria.  Eddie Cooney went to the meeting with Jack Schmidt, who owned the Mildura Convention grounds, and a few other friends.  However, Ed Cooney was turned away by the worker at the door, and Tom Turner, Jack Schmidt and quite a few others left with him.

With all these unsettled issues and others remaining after Bill Carroll's death, John Hardie and Tom Turner called a 4-day meeting of the Elder Workers of Australian States and New Zealand to be held at Guildford N.S.W. on February 20-24, 1954.  This was a little over three (3) months after Bill Carroll's death.  Guildford is a suburb or district located on the western outskirts of Sydney, N.S.W., where a convention was held until it was moved to Maroota.  

"An elder's meeting of this sort had often been wished for & suggested in past years, but Wm. Carroll was not in agreement, not considering it necessary, stating that conventions were sufficient…All States & New Zealand were asked to send a representative & each leader… accepted the invitation, but the other workers in Victoria wrote back…that they did not see the need for a worker's meeting.  This was done while Chris (Williams) wrote from Tasmania accepting the invitation."  

In all, eleven (11) workers were present at the meeting:  John Hardie, Thomas M. Turner, J. Williamson, Chris Williams, Walter Pickering, Willie John Hughes,  John Christian Baartz, R. Les Hawse, W. Schloss, Alex R. Mitchell and Harry Morgan; Tom Turner led the meeting.

John Hardie, Tom Turner, J. Williamson and Bill Carroll were all from Ireland and Scotland.  They are all found on the 1905 Workers List and were pioneers of the various Australian states. Tom Turner helped pioneer Western Australia and spent the last 35 years of his life as the elder worker in Queensland, where he died at the age of 82.

At the Guildford meeting, the major issues discussed concerned Bill Carroll's successor; the exchange of workers within Australia; the "border" question; cooperation of Victoria with the other Australia states;  dealing with the saints in Victoria and South Australia who had been put out without a hearing; and last but not least, the Rosebud dwelling which "had been the cause of contention in other countries as well as Australia."

COOPERATION was stressed.  It seemed that Victoria had been a sovereign kingdom ruled by Bill Carroll and was considered uncooperative by the other State heads. "…all give an assurance that, as much as is in our power, we will go back to our States to show to our fellow laborers that we are all united & that we will foster this spirit of cooperation in this work of God?  (Assurance given unanimously)"

A high degree of emphasis was placed on going back to the way things were carried out in the beginning, and the importance of following those methods.  "That all are agreed that we, as servants of God, should be on the same lines as at the beginning.  We feel that what happened has been a digression from the way in which the work began--both in our day & Jesus' day."

On the other hand, they set up a governing body with voting rights for "this side of the world, each country:  India, Ceylon, Malaya, Indonesia, each State of the commonwealth & New Zealand, " and at future meetings, these areas were to be represented.  This was never a part of their Beginning Basics.  "Eleven workers (elders) in all & one (John Hardie) with the power to convene meetings to decide matters when called upon by elders of any State of country.  A senior worker should be appointed to oversight."

Since they felt that "Something without a leader tends to lack of unity,"  John Hardie was appointed head overseer of the ENTIRE REGION, and also over matters regarding workers being sent to the East.  

The workers "separated at Guildford with high hopes that unity and harmony would prevail and all would be well…Within a few days of the return to Victoria of Chris Williams & Walter Pickering, a meeting of the Victorian workers was held at Dandenong to discuss the Guildford report.  Those workers drew up a circular which was signed by Chris Williams."   

When the Victorian workers heard about the discussions at the Guildford meeting, they were distressed and unhappy.  They felt that "a personal attack had been made on the life & testimony of the late Wm. Carroll & that the meetings were held for that purpose."  They felt strongly that "it is not the right thing for any man or elder to interfere with another State."  They viewed the meeting as an attempt by the other State Overseers to interfere with the work in Victoria.  They felt that "the reason for this thing happening is because there is such lust for power & place." They objected to the move towards a centralized system of administration.  "Chris stated that he meant to stand behind the testimony of Wm. Carroll, & John (Hardie) replied that he means to stand by the testimony of Jesus Christ."  

The Victorian workers drew up a circular expressing their viewpoints which was signed by Chris Williams and delivered to the churches throughout Victoria.  For the Victorian workers and their Overseer to acquaint the friends with the details of contention among the workers was to overstep an unwritten law in the Workers' Code of Ethics; especially after all the workers had agreed to strive for cooperation at the recent Guildford meeting. Chris Williams wrote John Hardie that: "…a breach even greater, seems imminent…Could it not all not be withdrawn?"  

Some conventions were cancelled and the suspected reason was so that the new converts wouldn't hear talk about the divisions, and excommunications.  The relationship of the friends and the meetings were filled with strife. "True fellowship for many had almost ceased since workers & saints in many churches were constant in their 'preaching against' those in their midst who they felt were questioning the stand taken by the Victorian workers."  

The senior workers from other Australian States intruded into Victorian territory and visited the friends.  This was another breach of the workers Code of Ethics.  Eventually, George Walker and Jack Carroll from America, and Jack Forbes from England, traveled to Australia and attempted to reconcile matters.  Over a year later, on April 20, 1955, the senior workers withdrew the statement made about Bill Carroll:

"The Overseers of Australia and those from Overseas being met together to consider the difficulties that exist concerning the work in Victoria, are agreed that the statement contained in the Guildford Report reflecting on the life and ministry of our late Brother (W. C. Carroll) is now unconditionally withdrawn.

"The Victorian workers and saints who met at Dandenong also wish to express their regret for the statements made reflecting on the Elders and Workers from other countries and these are unconditionally withdrawn, also the letter sent out from Dandenong to the several Churches in Victoria.

"Regarding the residence at Rosebud, we feel it is our duty to state that we cannot accept such an arrangement as a precedent that could be repeated.

"We would add that in our opinion, when an Overseer in any State or Country, through infirmities or other circumstances is unable to personally carry out his responsibilities, he should call to his aid a Brother who has the approval and confidence of his Brethren and who can eventually assume the oversight.

In order to give assurance to all concerned that every effort will be made to restore confidence and promote unity and true fellowship amongst Workers and in the several Churches in Victoria we will endeavour to find an impartial Brother from overseas who will supervise and co-operate in the Oversight of the Work for such time as may be considered necessary."  (Click Here for Withdrawal of Guildford Report, Dandenong, April 20, 1955)

Archie Turner was put in temporarily as overseer; and Willie Donaldson, ex-Jamaica, became Victoria's Overseer. After a couple years, the two groups returned to one common convention in various parts of the state.  However, the rift among some of the friends did not end immediately, and even in 1997, the Author received a letter stating:  "The feelings that were there then have not gone completely—it is still a bit 'them' and 'us.' "

After two of the factions were reunited, the word "United" was added to their letterhead:  "The United Christian Conventions of Australasia and New Zealand."  [Click Here to view copy]  Fred Hanowell wrote:  "In Australia, for instance, the fellowship split into three divisions, two of them united again, calling themselves, "The United Christian Conventions, Representing Assemblies of Christians Assuming That Name Only." [Click Here for Letter by Fred Hanowell]   Reportedly, these names were also used at times:  Christian Assemblies of Victoria;  Christian Assemblies of Australia; Christian Conventions of Australia and New Zealand.

Almost 50 years later, history nearly repeated itself.  A parallel to the Victoria, Australia split took place on a different continent, with a different worker overseer, at the turn of the 21st century.  Difficult times in Alberta, Canada were experienced, when over 21 churches were closed and numerous friends excommunicated at the direction of the Alberta Overseer Willis Propp. 

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